东西问·中外对话 | 中国足球能向德国足球学些什么？

中新网：尤尔根·克林斯曼，德国足球名宿。球员时期，他帮助德国队赢得世界杯与欧洲杯双料冠军，被誉为“金色轰炸机”。退役后，他曾担任德国、美国国家队主教练，执教过德甲豪门拜仁慕尼黑等。

马明宇，2002年韩日世界杯中国国家队队长，球员时代曾留洋意甲，目前任中国足协执委。

中国足球如何走出低谷？中国足球应向德国足球学些什么？中新社“东西问·中外对话”近日邀请克林斯曼和马明宇就此展开对话。

在克林斯曼看来，中国足球正经历一条“学习曲线”。他认为，许多国家开展足球运动时都会走弯路，正如事物发展总是有起有伏。但他相信，随着更多孩子喜欢足球，以及相关基础设施的提升，中国足球会找到正确的发展方向。

作为中国足球从业者，马明宇认为，应该学习德国足球面对逆境时的坚韧。同时，要构建稳定、良好的联赛生态体系，培育足球文化，让足球在校园中普及，再深化到精英训练。他相信若如此，中国足球水平将在未来大幅提高。

中新社“东西问·中外对话”栏目邀请德国足球名宿克林斯曼和2002年韩日世界杯中国国家队队长马明宇对话。 中新网记者 李霈韵 摄

以下为对话摘编：

中新社记者：中国男足在世预赛失利后受到很多批评，球员和教练该如何面对？中国足球该如何应对？

马明宇：输掉比赛后，球员受到球迷的批评甚至谩骂很正常。作为中国足球人，要直面质疑，虚心接受批评并反省。我们要梳理过去方方面面的问题、包括足球人自身的问题。中国足球要去除糟粕，汲取欧洲和日韩的先进经验，经过梳理后走出一条创新之路。

克林斯曼：在体育界受到批评很正常。当进展不顺时，无论教练、球员，还是投资人、管理者都会受到指责。我认为，应该化批评为动力。受批评时，不要为此失望，要积极地接受它。

你必须说：“好吧，我现在从错误和糟糕的表现中得到教训，然后去迎接下一个挑战”。事物不断向前发展，所以你应该考虑下周、下月或者明年时，自己最好能做到何种程度。我祝中国足球好运，希望它不断成长、越来越强。

资料图：克林斯曼。图片来源：视觉中国

中新社记者：国家队赛事之外，职业联赛是当今足坛不可缺少的一部分。联赛对一个国家足球运动的发展有哪些作用？

克林斯曼：联赛非常重要。德甲是每个德国孩子梦寐以求的舞台。生长于德国，不论在慕尼黑、斯图加特还是柏林，父亲都会把足球运动传递给你，你会自然而然地喜欢上一支球队，梦想随之开始。

马明宇：联赛是国家开展足球运动的试金石，要起到引领作用，稳定、良好的生态体系至关重要，它对足球运动的开展以及青少年影响非常大。克林斯曼提到足球文化，这也是非常重要的一点。国内很多俱乐部已经开始注重培育足球文化，但我觉得还远远不够。我们要把它根植到联赛和足球运动中。

资料图：亚足联2001年度最佳奖项颁奖大会，国际足联技术部主任盖特为马明宇颁发亚洲最佳国家队奖。

中新社记者：德国足球总能涌现出源源不断的人才，德国在培养孩子参与足球运动上有哪些心得？中国足球在这方面的欠缺是否已有好转？

克林斯曼：环境很重要。你会被联赛、朋友、邻居吸引，去尝试这项运动。如果周围的孩子都踢球，你很容易会被带动。乒乓球在中国很受欢迎，所以你会打乒乓球很正常。我在足球环境中长大，所以喜欢足球。

我还在美国生活了20多年，那里不少孩子喜欢篮球，很多人会打篮球。因此，需要有适合足球运动开展的环境，让人们成为其中的一份子，喜欢它、享受它，项目的发展才会被推动。

马明宇：从教育部等6部门2015年开始加快发展青少年校园足球到现在，足球在校园中的环境普及性已经达到。但精英培训还不够，这一环节所需的优秀教练数量也远远不够。今年有一个很好的变化，那就是全国校园足球联赛将推行。通过校园足球普及，再进一步深化到精英训练，中国足球水平几年后会得到大幅提高。

图为2021年5月9日，福州市仓山区第五中心小学，来自该校的选手与福建西山学校的选手(蓝衣)在比赛中争抢。张斌 摄

中新社记者：目前不少中超俱乐部遭遇生存危机，联赛和国家队都陷入低谷。如何看待这种现象，又该如何走出低谷？

克林斯曼：这是一条学习曲线，许多国家在开展足球运动时都经历过：在球员身上花费太多钱、引进外援时不惜财力。但后来从整体看，效果不尽人意。

足球发展的过程有起有伏。例如美国职业大联盟，迄今已走过26年，他们开始时也犯了很多错，一些俱乐部因此倒闭，后来才一步步发展到今天的模样。英超也不总是世界上最顶级的联赛，他们走过了一条漫长的发展道路；马明宇曾在意甲踢球，上世纪90年代初，那里是世界最顶级的联赛，马拉多纳、古利特等伟大球员都曾在意甲踢球。

足球运动的发展离不开多重支持，包括国家层面、联赛层面、场地设施还有后辈培养等。其中，让中超联赛变得稳定并保持专注最为重要。3年前，我有幸到中国看了一场非常精彩的中超比赛，我相信他们能找到某种程度上的平衡。通过每年的学习，中超会朝着正确的方向发展。

马明宇：国内在谈论“金元足球”时，把很多责任和问题归咎于资金投入及投资人，这不完全正确。我们应该希望市场向好，有更多热爱足球的投资人参与。中国足球正走在一条探索之路上，不要怕遇到问题。我们一定要直面问题，寻求改变，让联赛越来越好。

中新社记者：克林斯曼在2019年曾来过中国，印象如何？中国足球和德国足球在哪些领域可以进一步开展合作？

克林斯曼：德甲和中超之间的每一次合作，都是很好的机会，尤其在青少年层面。互相交流越多，各种想法和解决问题的方法就越多。很高兴德甲在中国设有办事处，这会给两国带来更多交流机会。

3年前的中国之旅令我印象深刻，我度过了一段开心的时光，看到了很多踢球的孩子。和那时相比，我相信中国足球有了日新月异的变化。随着足球基础设施提升，中国国家队的实力会随之变强。虽然这次中国队不太走运，没能进军卡塔尔世界杯，但4年后的世界杯必须成为中国队的目标。这一切的前提，是有更多孩子去踢足球。

马明宇：以前在德国踢球的中国球员不少，最成功的是效力于法兰克福的杨晨。德国足球青训非常扎实，我真心希望双方能更深层次地在青少年方面增加交流，这会对中国足球有很大帮助。

德国足球风格务实简练、团队配合严谨、历史积淀深厚，特别是在大赛中，身处逆境时善于打“逆风球”。中国足球最应该学习的，是德国足球精神层面的东西。

在当地时间4月23日进行的德甲联赛“国家德比”中，拜仁慕尼黑主场3比1战胜多特蒙德，提前卫冕联赛冠军。图为拜仁球员庆祝胜利。

中新社记者：目前有几名中国球员在欧洲踢球。克林斯曼对于中国球员留洋有何建议？

克林斯曼：很多人说，没有取得进球或没有成为主力便意味着留洋失败，我不这样认为。留洋是好事，并没有“失败”一说。对球员而言，留洋是一个很长的学习过程，不仅限于足球，于个人也是一种成长。生活在不同文化中，说着不同语言，这是巨大的挑战，会带来不一样的体验。只要有机会留洋，就应该去尝试。

(W.E. Talk) In developing football sport, what can China learn from Germany?

Special: W.E. Talk 东西问 · 中外对话
(ECNS)-- Dubbed "The Golden Bomber", Jürgen Klinsmann is a legendary footballer who helped the German national team to win both World Cup and Euro Cup titles. After retiring as a player, he transformed himself into a professional coach and manager, continuing with his passion for the sport and passing on his experiences to the younger generations.

Ma Mingyu, a symbolic figure in Chinese football, served as the captain of Chinese national football team during the 2002 World Cup Korea/Japan. He also played in Italian Serie A and is now an Executive Committee member of the Chinese Football Association.

In this W.E. Talk, two football experts share their expectations for the upcoming Qatar World Cup and discussed the experiences and lessons learned in the development of this sport in both countries.

Klinsmann observes that China is on a "learning curve" just like other football powerhouses, and ups and downs are inevitable. He believes Chinese football will go along the right path with more and more children getting to love this sport and more infrastructure-building is facilitated on a higher level.

Based on his personal experience, Ma said Chinese footballers should learn from their German colleagues the perseverance and spirit to fight back against frustrations. He also agrees with Klinsmann that a stable league system, wider participation and professional training of young players are key to the development of the sport in China.

Here's an excerpt of the dialogue:
CNS: Chinese man's football team is under fire for their performances at the World Cup qualifications. How should they deal with those criticisms and how should Chinese football go forward?

Ma Mingyu: Every player will face criticisms. It's normal if you lose the game and the fans will criticize or scold you. As Chinese football players, we should face the criticisms directly, with an open mind. We need to figure out the problems in the system, in the environment and also on we footballers. Those that are not good should be abandoned, while those good qualities, like what we could find on others, including Europe and our neighbors Japan and South Korea, should be learned.

Jürgen Klinsmann: I think criticism is always there in the world of sport. It's normal. When things are not going so well, then the coaches and the players are blamed and also obviously the administrators and the owners and the investors. But I think in sports you take criticism always as a motivation. Every time when you get criticized for something, don't be disappointed with criticism.

You have to take it positively and you have to say "okay, I learn now out of whatever mistake or bad performance, and I go to the next challenge". It constantly goes forward. You look at what you can do best in the next week or next month or next year. And I keep my fingers crossed for the Chinese football that it keeps growing and growing and gets stronger and stronger.

Jürgen Klinsmann (Photo provided by VCG)
CNS: Apart from the games of national teams, football leagues are also an important infrastructure for this sport. What do you two think of the role of the leagues and football clubs?

Jürgen Klinsmann: I think the Bundesliga is extremely important because it's the league that every child dreams about to play for one day. When you were born and your father passes on the team to you, whatever his favorite team is, if it's Bayern Munich, if it's Hamburg or if it's Stuttgart or Berlin, doesn't matter.

And in your neighborhood, everybody plays football. So for us, football is just so embedded into our spirit, into our culture. We can always talk about football; we can get up with football and we can go to bed with football. We cannot wait until Saturdays when the games are getting played.

Ma Mingyu: I think the football league is a touchstone that reflects the level of the sport in a country. The quality of a league has a huge impact on football, especially on young players. The national league must keep a stable system, then it can lead the development of football. Mr. Klinsmann just mentioned the football culture, which is also a very important point. Many Chinese clubs have started to cultivate this culture thing. But I think it's far from enough. So I think the football culture should be embedded into our leagues and in the sport.

Ma Mingyu (R)
CNS: Germany is a football powerhouse in the world that cultivated so many football talents. How is that related to engaging the kids into the sport? And how can China reflect on German experience?

Jürgen Klinsmann: If your environment plays football, you will play football. If you find in your neighborhood other children that play football too, or in school, this is when you could develop the energy and the desire to play football. Obviously in China, for example, is ping pong. Your table tennis is big. So everybody plays ping pong, you play ping pong. So I only grew up with football because my entire neighborhood only played football.

I live in America for more than 20 years, and a lot of children play basketball because they see a lot of people play basketball. So I think when you have an environment that favors a certain sport, then you become part of it and then you like it, and that drives the entire infrastructure of the game.

Ma Mingyu: Now football has been promoted among schools with the introduction of a national initiative to encourage "campus football" in 2015. But I think it's far from enough, especially for professional training. There’s also a lack of good coaches. But what I think is very promising is that the Ministry of Education has started to promote the national campus football league this year. With more school children playing football and the improvement of professional training of young players, we can expect a level-up of the sport in China.

CNS: Many CSL clubs are facing crises after spending too much money in the past few years. And both CSL and the Chinese national team have hit rock bottom. What do you think is the problem?

Jürgen Klinsmann: It's a learning curve that a lot of countries went through. In the beginning, they maybe spent too much money on players, including those foreign players.

The American MLS league is now 26-years-old. Also they made some mistakes in the beginning. Some clubs had to fold, and then step by step, they added more clubs. So it is up and down.

The Premier League was not always the top league in the world. It was a long path for the Premier League too. I, personally, and Ma, he played in Italy, too. And Italian football, when I was there in the late 80s, beginning of 90s, was the top league in the world because there were Maradona, Careca, Alemao, Gullit, and all these great players.

Every league has its ups and downs and the league depends on the infrastructure of the country and the federation, the stadiums, the fields and obviously, the kids, the youth football. I was fortunate 3 years ago to go to a game of CSL. It was a very good game that I saw. I'm sure that they could kind of balance things out. You learn every year. And then things will turn at the right direction.

Ma Mingyu: Now, when we talk about the "money-burning football", many blame the capital and investors for their interventions. But frankly speaking, I don't think it's right, because a good market needs the involvement of those investors who are fond of football. Chinese football is also exploring its path. We don't have to be afraid once there’s any problem. We need to find out the source of the problems and solve them, making the league better and better.

CNS: Where do you see China and Germany can further cooperate in the football field? Mr. Klinsmann, I know you've come to China in 2019. What's your observation on the development of football in China all these years?

Jürgen Klinsmann: Every cooperation that we can have between the Bundesliga and the Chinese Super League or between the two federations is good. The more you play, the more you compete, the more you exchange teams, maybe tournaments, especially also on the youth level, and the more you discuss different ideas, different approaches. I think this approach has to be there and the win-win situation helps always both sides. And that's why I'm happy that the Bundesliga, they have offices in China. It gets to have more exchange, more get-togethers.

When I saw the kids playing there in China 3 years ago, I was highly impressed and I think the more this now is happening on a daily base, the more they play all over the country, the stronger your entire infrastructure will get, and also at the end, the stronger your national team will get. Obviously, China was not lucky to now to go to Qatar, but then the next World Cup has to be the goal. But it all starts with the children playing more.

Kids are playing footbal in Fuzhou, China's Fujian Province. (Photo: Zhang Bin/ China News Service)
Ma Mingyu: Actually, many Chinese football players have been to Germany. One of the most successful ones is Yang Chen, one of my previous teammates, who played once for Eintracht Frankfurt. Germany has done beautifully in youth training, like in their skills. If there can be some deep conversations in this field with Germany, then it will be of great help for Chinese football.

Also, we all know that German players play simple but practical football. And I think they are very mature in teamwork. I think what Chinese football should learn is the spirit of German football. In many important games, Germany would always fight for comeback wins when falling behind, especially during World Cup games. German football has a history of fighting back in setbacks, and I think Chinese football should really learn from the spirit of German football.

CNS: Some Chinese players are now playing in European leagues. Do you have some suggestions for them, Mr. Klinsmann?

Jürgen Klinsmann: A lot of people say if you go and you don't score goals or you don't become a player right away in the first 11, it fails in Europe. But that's not true. It's only a good thing and so there's no failure.

It's a learning curve just not only on the football side, also on the person's side, to go to a different country, live in a different culture, speak a different language. It's very difficult, so it's a huge challenge. I think if you get the opportunity, try it, do it.

要学的可多了